Bronsealderen i Norden, og buetyper for perioden.

[MalaWolf]

Jeg har nå lett endel etter buefunn fra nordisk bronsealder, men kommer til kort. Det nærmeste jeg har kommet er barlind-langbuene fra Alpene, men disse er da og noe eldre. Øtzi er kobberalder, og buen fra Schnidenjoche er snaue 500 år eldre enn dette igjen. Det som synes klart er at dette er langbuer, og ikke flatbuer ala Holmegård. Så spørsmålet er vel, hva slags buetype dominerte her oppe under bronsealderen? Har vi i det hele tatt noen funn å forholde oss til? At buen var i bruk kommer jo tydelig frem av pilspissfunnene fra perioden, men jeg har hverken sett eller hørt om et eneste buefragment som tydelig kan tidfestes til bronsealder... Noen som vet noe mer enn meg om dette?

På Wikipedia finner jeg dette: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_archery#Europe )

The oldest bows known so far come from the Holmegård swamp in Denmark. In the 1940s, two bows were found there. The Holmegaard bows are made of elm and have flat arms and a D-shaped midsection. The center section is biconvex. The complete bow is 1.50 m (5 ft) long. Bows of Holmegaard-type were in use until the Bronze Age; the convexity of the midsection has decreased with time.

Betyr dette at Holmegårdbuene opphører fullstendig i det øyeblikket eikekistegravene er et faktum?

Fra perioden i Hellas er det avbildet enkelte bueskyttere. For meg minner denne buen definitivt om en langbue (utifra hvordan den bøyer), ala Øtzi / Schnidi. Gitt den nordiske kontakten med området, kan man tenke seg liknene buer her oppe i Norden?

kilde


komposittbue?

[MalaWolf]

Jeg sitter med en sterk følelse av at flatbuene forsvant da jegerfolket ble presset østover her i Norden, og med jordbruket kommer nye maktstrukturer og konflikter. Konflikter fører til en sterkere våpenkultur. Jeg tror langbuene ala Øtzi / Schnidenjoche / Engelsk langbue kommer sammen med jordbrukerene i Europa, og at de er drevet frem av en ny og mer økonomisk metode for å lage buer - man får flere buer pr emne...

Er det noen som kjenner til et flatbuefunn fra Europa som er yngre enn Øtzi?

[nidrinr]

på s. 76- 79 i TBB4 er det en oversikt over endel buefunn. ca 4700 år gammal fra latvia, ask flatbue. Yngste flatbue jeg kom på å ha sett nevnt.

[MalaWolf]

på s. 76- 79 i TBB4 er det en oversikt over endel buefunn. ca 4700 år gammal fra latvia, ask flatbue. Yngste flatbue jeg kom på å ha sett nevnt.

Det er noen nye genetiske analyser som viser at bøndene, jordbrukerene i Europa kom sørfra (Hellas/Tyrkia), spredte seg ut og opp til Norden. Jegerfolket som var her fra før (flatbuefolk) ble presset østover av de plasskrevende jorbrukerne. Latvia er ett av områdene hvor en finner jegerfolkets DNA i dag, og det er i de baltiske landene at jordbruket starter senest .. Men buen du nevner burde vært 1000 (endret: 2000 år) yngre om den skal falle inn under nordisk bronsealder.

[MalaWolf]

Jeg kom over denne: http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/am ... chery.html

What kind of a bow did the Amesbury Archer use, and how powerful was it? Only a very few prehistoric bows have been found in Britain and Ireland. The earliest one dates to around 4000 BC and was found at Rotten Bottom, in the Moffat hills in south-west Scotland. This was a single-piece yew flatbow, which had probably broken during a deer hunt in the hills. The Amesbury Archer's bow may well have been of a different kind - shorter, curved, and possibly made of more than one material. Such bows were adopted from Europe around 2500 BC, and used alongside the older type. Other novelties adopted from Europe were a new kind of arrowhead, with a tang (for attachment to the arrowshaft) and barbs (to help the arrow stick in the target), and fancy stone wristguards. These protected the wrist from the bowstring as it snapped back after a shot.

The Amesbury bow need not have been particularly powerful. If used for hunting, or even for combat, the archer would have tried to get as close to his prey/enemy as possible, to ensure that the arrows struck their target.

Also of interest is the shale ring, which might have been from a belt or strap - perhaps even the strap for his quiver.

Så hva menes med dette "The Amesbury Archer's bow may well have been of a different kind - shorter, curved, and possibly made of more than one material. Such bows were adopted from Europe around 2500 BC, and used alongside the older type." ? Hvor har de dette fra? Hvilke spesifikke funn er det som viser dette?

[MalaWolf]

kilde

Bronze and Iron Age Archery

By the Bronze Age the Chinese were using composite bows of more than one design. Usually made from a combination of horn, sinew and wood. The Scandinavians too were using composite bows by the Bronze Age, however these were probably not a native invention. The Egyptians had been using archery since at least 3,000BC, and the earliest Pharaohs were using the bow for both hunting and warfare. Their enemies the Persians were still using spears and slingshot, however not long after successes on the battlefield the bow was widely adopted as a weapon of war. It's use spread to the Shang Chinese (1766-1027BC), Babylonians, ancient Hebrews and Assyrians amongst others.

The Bronze Age sees a decline in the number of artifacts found in Northern Europe, and by the La Tene period (Iron Age in northern and western Europe) we find little evidence of archery in the archaeology. Neither do the Roman writers of this period mention the bow as a Germanic weapon. In the east archery continued pretty much as before, and we see the first direct evidence for use of the crossbow by the Chinese during the Han dynasty (206 - 220AD), although there is literary evidence pointing to its invention as early as 600BC. The Romans themselves adopted the Asiatic bow for their cavalry, and seem to have owed much of their military success to the use of archery.

[MalaWolf]

In the British Isles the weapon was first recorded as being used by the Welsh in AD 633, when Offrid, the son of Edwin, king of Northumbria, was killed by an arrow shot from a Welsh longbow during a battle between the Welsh and the Mercians — more than five centuries before any record of its military use in England. Despite this, the weapon is more commonly known as the "English longbow" than the "Welsh longbow".

At least two Neolithic longbows have been found in Britain. One was found in Somerset. It was identified as Neolithic by radiocarbon dating in the 1950s, much to the consternation of some archaeologists at the time. A second was found in southern Scotland at Rotten Bottom. It was made of yew and dates to between 4040 and 3640 BC. A reconstructed bow had a draw-weight of about 23 kgf (50 lbf, 220 N) and a range of 50 to 55 metres. The famous Ötzi the Iceman, of the Early Bronze Age, found in the Ötztaler Alps, bore a bow very similar to the Rotten Bottom example, with a bowstring of nettle or flax fibre.

Weapons resembling a longbow have been discovered by archaeologists in Scandinavia dating from the Mesolithic period, made of elm wood found in the Holmegaard-bog in Denmark (although during the medieval period Scandinavians were characterized by the effective use of the shortbow). From the Neolithic onwards, yew was the preferred material, it was ideal as the inner heartwood would compress, while the outer sapwood would stretch, making a powerful natural spring.

kilde

Mer om Rotten Bottom buen:

Rotten Bottom
diskSave result
viewView Original Record
globePlot result on map
globeDownload KML
Organisation The Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland
Alternative Name(s)
Canmore ID 71910
Site Type BOW (WEAPON)
County DUMFRIES-SHIRE
Parish MOFFAT
Council DUMFRIES AND GALLOWAY
NGR NT 146 144
Latitude, Longitude 55.416045N, 3.350582W
Images 0
Archaeological Notes
NT11SW 10 146 144

A longbow (C14 date 4040-3640 cal BC, 2 sigma) was found near the base of a peat stack in the Tweedsmuir Hills by Dr Dan Jones of Melrose. Around two-thirds of it survives; it appears to have broken in antiquity. Now in NMS, following a Treasure Trove enquiry: registration number IP 6.
Daybook no: DB 1991/65.
NMS 1992.

In 1990 a broken yew longbow was found at about 660m OD, near the base of a peat hag and close to the underlying iron pan. It sustained slight damage during recovery and dried out before being formally examined.
The remains measure 1.36m in length, comprising about two-thirds of a bow of original length 1.74m. One limb survives complete; the other was broken in antiquity. The bow is made from a single piece of wood with a constricted grip. The limbs are virtually straight, D-shaped in section and up to 25mm wide. The thickness:width ratio is about 1:15, and there is no wear at the tip.
The bow falls in size between the Neolithic examples from Meare and Ashcott Heaths, England. It probably had a draw-weight of between 11 and 18kg for an arrow of length 0.71m, and would thus be less powerful than a modern hunting bow.
The bow has been dated by radiocarbon to 2520 +/- 100bc (OxA-3540).
A Sheridan 1992.

kilde

[MalaWolf]

Rotten Bottom buen er det nærmeste jeg har kommet. Det er jævla irriterende at man ikke har skikkelige funn av buer fra eldre bronsealder


Meare Heath buen ligger i samme tidsrom .. sånn omtrent - og kan i det minste klassifiseres som en flatbue - tror jeg ....

[Stein]

Ivar Malde diskuterte dette i sin artikkel, laget før masteroppgaven. Om han har et annet syn nå, vil vi nok kjapt få vite...
Nederst på side 4 begynner avsnittet om bronsealder.
http://www.kviljo.no/bue/artikler/Langb ... 0Malde.pdf

[MalaWolf]

Den kilden der burde jeg ha tenkt på ... hehe ..

Vel - av dette kan jeg lese at jeg enten bør bruke langbue av alm eller barlind (ala Øtzi / Schnidejoche). Brukes barlind skal ikke ytterveden være med. Eller jeg kan benytte en holmegaard-bue ... men hvilke av typene faller nærmest kulturen som la ned eikekistene sies her ikke. Kanskje Kviljo har kan komme med noen indikasjoner?

[Kviljo]

Har ikke noen sterke formeninger om dette egentlig. Artikkelen jeg skrev i 2006 er ikke noen komplett gjennomgang av alt tilgjengelig materiale, og er ment som en enkel oppsummering av de mest kjente funnene.

Ser man veldig grovt på materialet ser det ut til at flatbuer er vanligst i steinalderen, mens langbuer er vanligst i jernalderen. Eldre bronsealder ligner mer på steinalder enn jernalder, og slik sett er det ikke urimelig å anta at flatbuer av forskjellige varianter har vært i bruk også da. Dette har nok også en del å gjøre med materialtilgang. Er det mulig å påvise at barlind har vært utbredt i bronsealderen i området man ser på, er det helt rimelig å anta at det har vært brukt til buer. Og da som tykkere buer enn steinalderens flatbuer av alm, hvilket kanskje vil si at buene kunne blitt ansett som langbuer. Definisjonssak er det jo også, hehe.

[MalaWolf]

Etter tips fra Kviljo fyrte jeg avgårde en epost til mr Junkmann:

From: "Glenn A. Eriksen"
To: <Juergen.Junkmanns (AT-) pfeil-bogen.de>
Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:38 AM
Subject: Bronze Age bows


Hello

I was told that you might have som information about the bows used in
the Bronze Age in Northern Europe (by fellow bowyer and Norwegian
archer Ivar Malde).

My dilemma is this, I have made myself a Bronze Age outfit, based on
the Danish oak-coffin findings. But I cannot seem to find any
information about the bows these people might have used.

Is it possible that the Holmegaard flatbow was used by the culture
that layed down the oak coffins, or was it longbows made of yew
heartwood, much like the Schnidejoche / Ötzie bows?

Any information that could point me in right direction in finding an
answer to this mystery is greatly appreciated

Best Regards
Glenn Eriksen (aka MalaWolf)

Og nå fikk jeg svar

Hello Mr. ERiksen,

there are several bronze age bows that heve been found in England,
Switzerland, Holland, Germany and Italy. They are all flatbows made from yew
(only the Italian one is dogwood).The sapwod was used in prehistoric yew
bows.

Early bronze age bows are like late neolithic bows narrow and straight.

Characteristics of middle and late bronze age are quite wide limbs (also
near the nocks) and an extremely narrow grip.

There are illustrations in my book
http://www.amazon.de/Pfeil-Bogen-Herste ... 559&sr=1-2.

Jürgen Junkmanns

Om noen har denne boken av mr Junkmanns, vill jeg satt stor pris på å få vite nøyaktig hvilke funn det her siktes til. Når den ble funnet, hvem som stod for analysen og hvor funnene er gjort.

[Kviljo]

Cool. Jeg har den. Kjekk liten bok som absolutt er verdt å ha i hylla. Jeg får ikke sett i den før om noen uker, men jeg tror muligens han refererer til Meare Heath og Ashcott (om det skrives slik) heath fra England, blant andre. Bronsealderen er nok litt tidligere der (noe jeg ser at jeg utrolig nok ikke tok høyde for i artikkelen min fra 2006 )

Husker også at det er forholdsvis greie tegninger av de andre han nevner også, men det er ikke nok til å lage noen nøyaktige kopier, dessverre.

Men en Meare Heath hadde jo vært kult sammen med Bronsealderstasjet. Men da er jeg redd du må pimpe deg opp en del, for å står i stil med buen Dog, tekstil i seg selv var nok forholdsvis coolt. 8)

[Christian]

Hadde vært morro å sett en meare heath replika i action. Utifra de måla jeg har sett, må den jo ha handshock som en premenstruell pony!

[MalaWolf]

Jeg fulgte opp med enda en mail til Jürgen:

I greatly appriciate your reply to my question (!)

My next question now would be if you know the name of these findings,
where these bows were found, by who, when were they found and if there
are any scientific analysis available?

Usually these bows are given names . Any German bows found close to
the Danish border from the early Bronze Age? Are any of these bows on
display in a museum somewhere? Online pictures/ museum database index
numbers?



Too many questions, I know - but you seem to be the first one that
might actually have some answers

Best Regards
Glenn Eriksen

Og jeg fikk svar = så nå har jeg noen funn å søke etter .. *gliser*

Sorry Glenn,

I don´t have the time to write a long answer on your questions.

The finds are published in a lot of separate articles or books. There is no reliable summary available.My Phd thesis will answer these questions, but it is not yet published (it will be probably next year). However you will find some information in my little book> http://www.amazon.de/Pfeil-Bogen-Herste ... 559&sr=1-2.



There is no bronze age bow near the danish border. The find in Holland is called "de Zilk", finds in England are called "Cambridge Fens" and "Edington Burtle". Switzerland: "Lötschenpass". East Germany: "Barleben". Italy: "Fiavé-Carera". You should be able to find additional information on the net.

Best regards, Jürgen